Messing About In Sailboats

Advice about buying a diesel engine

My 26' S2, Messing About, has an unreliable 10HP outboard. I have been giving some serious thought to buying a diesel, so I asked the community for advice. As ever you guys came up trumps. Thank you. Here are some edited highlights:

What should I buy?

Some enigne makers are making quite compact diesel sail drives. Seems it might be ideal for that kind of boat? Robert

the new Harbor 25 has a nifty little inboard mounted outboard engine. Must be a heck of a lot cheaper. Ask a LOT of questions B4 you buy. Dan

How much will it cost? Well the answer is how long is a piece of string

a new 20 HP diesel will run you 20,000. Michael B

The boat I race on is a Bristol 35.5 and the owner put in a new 30hp diesel for around 11,000. Another crew member has a Pearson 30 and he put in a new diesel, probably around 20hp, and I think it ran him around 8,000. Scott

I plan to buy a marinized Kubota engine from Sound Marine Diesel LLC called a Beta Marine. The quote for the engine, panel, wiring transmission and mounts is $9,200 USD. Installation quote is approximately $3,500 USD. Dan

my friend Jasper does the best research of anyone I know. he's got an old (1958) Chesapeake 32 and last year his westebeke gas blew a head gasket. over the winter he decided on a Beta Marine Diesel. I think all in, including new shaft and prop and electronic control panel it's close to 10k, Thomas Armstrong

Should I do it?

No. Stick with the outboard. It gives you enough power. Don't waste your money on this. Brian at Morgan's Marina. (I absolutely love Brian's honesty. I am a customer for life now)

1- How long do you plan on keeping this particular boat? If you're keeping her like skin then maybe going with an inboard diesel would be worth the time and $$$$ investment. I've found used at an affordable price in my area and even new at a reasonable price.

2- If you're not keeping her until your age/health grounds you, then maybe the best thing is finding a good used (or spring for new) outboard with a bit more power. That way you don't spend time fighting to install a new engine and all the wiring etc. and you can be back out on the water faster.

Having worked on my boats diesel engine I know that I'd rather be sailing than crawling around in small spaces with prickly fiberglass trying to retro fit a diesel engine! Debbie

Thanks to everyone who contributed. It's going to cost me more than my boat's worth and as I doubt we'll keep her for more than 3 years I think we will tough it out with the outboard.

Need your advice: Getting a diesel engine

Dear Sailing Blogging Community,

I need your advice. My 26' S2 has a very unreliable outboard engine. It sucks and I want to bury it. It may be that my best option is to get an inboard. Something like a 15-20 HP diesel. I have questions and if you have some advice I would love your thoughts:

1. Should I invest in an inboard or just get a new outboard?
2. Does anyone have a clue how much this will cost?
3. What horror stories do you have?

Launch of Messing About - Mission Accomplished

Our launch of Messing About was aborted earlier this month due to a buggered outboard. One new water pump, a new carb and $840 later, we have a working outboard and launched her this weekend.

Saturday, was about getting her to the mooring. A simple navigation of the Cheesequake Creek from Morgan's Marina, through a raised railroad bridge and road bridge and then a motor over to Raritan Yacht Club. It was fairly uneventful.

We had a little sail but there was no wind so tied her up to the dock, gave her a good wash and put her back on her mooring.

On Sunday, we took our friends, Andy, Rob and Colleen out. This was a bit more eventful as the bloody engine would not start. Go figure.

Sailing off the mooring was a cinch. There wasn't much wind and what there was all over the shop. It started out of the Northwest, veered east, stalled and then veered Southeast. When we came back to the mooring it was back out of the Northwest. It seemed like at the Western end of the bay, the wind was out of the North but as we headed East the prevailing winds ..er prevailed. We then became becalmed and sailed backwards against the ebbing tide for an hour. Very odd.

Sailing back on to the mooring was a little more exciting as of course this was the most wind we had all day. The mostly novice crew did well and we picked up the mooring first time.

Alice and I took her out again today. Similar weird wind conditions to yesterday and got stalled in the same place. Alice calls it the Keyport Black Hole (as it's off Keyport).

The engine of course started today. It seemed a refilled tank was what was needed. This is strange as there was a gallon left yesterday.

Messng About is functional but not a beauty. She is pretty grubby too. Lots to do in the off-season but it's great to be owners again.

The Launch of Messing About - Mission Aborted

The missus and I went down to Morgan's Boatyard this weekend full of excitement. This was the day we would launch Messing About. She has been scrubbed, bottom-painted, surveyed, de-named (yes I went down and conducted the first part of the renaming with a cheap bottle of Asti Spumante).

Saturday was supposed to be the day but Poseidon had other ideas. Clearly the God of the Sea didn't appreciate the cheapness of the bubbly.

We timed it so we would move the boat 30 mins after high tide when there would be a lot of slack water. We would then make our way down Cheesequake Creek (I am not making this name up by the way), through two bridges that would need to be raised. We would then motor over to the other side of Raritan Bay to our mooring at Raritan Yacht Club. Well that was the plan.

Messing About was floating nicely, tied up against the fuel dock. A buoyant boat. Passed the first test - Check.

We turned the batteries on. "The light went on" says Mrs T. Electrical power - Check

I switched on the radio  and turned it to Ch16. "This is the Coast Guard. Securite, Securite, blablabla". Radio - Check

OK, now for the coup de grace - the Engine. Messing About has a 10 HP Johnson outboard. This is my least favorite part of any boat. A necessary evil.

Pump the gas. Key in. Choke out a touch. Switch on-"Gnaa-gnaa-gnaa-gnaa-gnaa-gnaa-gnaa". Me no likey.

I checked around and realized that I had put the tube from the gas tank on the wrong way round and it wasn't pumping gas. Doh!

Fixed this and tried to start it up again. "Gnaa-gnaa-gnaa-gnaa-gnaa-gnaa-gnaa- Clunk-Clunk -gnaa-gnaa-gnaa-gnaa-gnaa-gnaa-gnaa". Some progress but not perfection. I futzed around, trying out different ways to get it started for 10 mins and then went to get the guy.

The great thing about being in the boatyard is that all I had to do was shuffle over to the boat-shed, look pathetic, mumble something about the engine and some chap in overalls agreed to help me. The chap in question is Brian who runs Morgan's and I can't say enough good things about his efforts.

He took the engine hood off, repeated what I had done and low and behold after about 10 mins got the engine started. Better. Much better but...

..She wouldn't idle and kept stalling.

Brian said he could fix it. Good again. but...

...This was followed by a loud whining, buzzing sound. That would be the engine overheating.

I looked at the engine. No water pumping. Not good. I looked at Brian. He looked at the engine and lack of pumping water and then back at me. The brow was furrowed and the lips were pursed. He tutted. Not good. Not good at all.

"Well" said Brian. "I could have fixed the idling but you need a new water pump. The thing is my guy who can fix this is on vacation for a week. I will take her out on Monday and we will get it to in the next two weeks."

The Mrs and I were glum but philosophical. The launch will have to wait for another day as will the renaming. This time it will be good champagne, dammit Poseidon.

Renaming A Boat? Beware!

We are renaming our new boat. She is currently known known as Tiger Lily. We will be renaming her Messing about.

Howard, the skipper of Knot Again, the boat I crew on, told me to take great care with this. Renaming a boat is a superstitious thing and there is a ceremony to observe that needs to be taken very seriously.

It is a very complicated ceremony that can be found in full here. If you are unfamiliar with it, check it out, it's bizarre.

Howard recounted his own tale of woe to me of the perils of not observing the ceremony with the appropriate decorum. 

Howard's 35' C&C had two previous owners. The original owner named her Ariadne. The owner before Howard named her Persephone.   A nice sounding name but why would you name a boat after the bride of Hades and queen of the underworld? Howard being a master of the pun renamed her Knot Again. Being a scientist by training, Howard disregarded the superstition and did not perform the boat renaming ceremony.

Howard was racing the newly named Knot Again in the Around Long Island Race. They were over half way into the 200 mile race and about to round the corner to pass through Plum Gut. This is a notoriously tricky cut. If the tide is against you, you are screwed. It also has some very nasty submerged spires on its Eastern edge.

Howard was off-watch and sleeping below. His son was at the helm. As they approached Plum Gut, there was one other boat ahead of them, a longer and faster boat. Knot Again was at the Eastern edge of the Gut and close to the submerged spires. She was clearly sailing faster than the other boat and would pass through first.

In a fit of competitive pique, the other boat started luffing up on Knot Again in an effort to overtake her. She forced Knot Again closer to the Eastern edge of the channel. Clearly she wasn't letting the upstart from Raritan upstage her. This was disastrous. With an almighty bang, Knot Again's 7ft keel struck the spires. To Howard below, it was like being in a car wreck. The boat stopped dead. Howard immediately drilled open the cabin sole to inspect the damage. His worst fears  came true. The impact had knocked the keel backwards and water was gushing in.

The crew bailed like crazy to keep her afloat. They managed to get Knot Again to Greenport, an hour away, where she was immediately hauled out. Repairing the damage cost $20,000.

The name of the boat who forced Knot Again formerly-known as Persephone? Cerberus! Yes, the dog of Hades that guards the gates of the underworld tracked Howard down and got its revenge on Howard for daring to eradicate the name of its queen without conducting the proper ceremony.

I have to admit that I am getting pretty nervous about the renaming.

PS: Not surprisingly, Howard protested against Cerberus a day later. His protest was denied because he had not flown a protest flag immediately after the incident. What was Howard thinking? 

PS 2: Another bizarre coincidence was that one of Howard's crew had a daughter called Ariadne, the boat's original name.

PS3: The owner of Tiger Lily was also on board. Oh, crap, I am scared!

Tips on Buying A Boat - Part 3 (Why Not To Buy A Boat)

This response on boat-buying tips and horror stories was so good that I publish it in its entirety.  Peter Hall makes an impassioned plea not to buy a boat. It's absolutely brilliant and sums up the insanity of sailing.

Dear Neighbors:

You are clearly infected by an insidious disease that will consume your brain and bank account. Boats: can't live with them, can't live without them. Shamelessly trite but true. They break, maintenance tasks are endless, and the yacht industry is full of many screwballs whose customer service attitudes make the telephone and computer industry look positively stellar. How could I possibly forget the boatyard who cut the wires leading out of the bottom of my mast instead of just disconnecting them before taking the mast down for winter storage. Or the year one yard kept billing me for services on a boat I did not own. Or the sail loft who promised me a new genoa within 2 months, and yet a year and half later it was not quite done despite full prepayment (my bad). More recently one yard wired my boat so poorly one battery was not connected, the high tech mapping device had me going 180 degrees the opposite direction and a newly installed depth sounder pointed at my keel and of course always indicated I was effectively aground at all times.

These expensive toys have no brakes, a serious design flaw if you ask me. You may have a boat weighing 10,000 pounds and no effective way to stop the damn thing when sailing. Even a 16 pound road bike has a highly effective braking system. Your time on the water will be filled with hours of boredom, times of blissful pleasure and moments of pure terror. Old married couples scream at each other while docking and at other times gaze at each other in supreme marital bliss while sipping cocktails in the cockpit at sunset. I mean think about it, the seemingly simple task of just parking the friggin' boat can turn into this major production with all the logistics and coordination of a military assault. You will put hours of work into this hobby and some years it will seem like there is more work on the boat than playing on the boat. You will wait all week to go sailing on your precious summer weekends, only to end up having rain 3 weekends in a row. The sailing season in Maine is brief. And yet our coast of Maine is clearly one of the prettiest, most romantic and inviting areas to sail in anywhere in the world. Our state is rated one of the top 3 cruising destinations in the world. Even after decades of being around our waters I never cease to be amazed by the view. Picture sailing along with the boat perfectly trimmed and balanced, water gurgling down the hull, blue sky and sun, a pilot whale off the starboard bow and you are gazing at conifer covered islands all around. And then 1/2 hour later you are panicing and totally stressed out because the fog has rolled in big time and you are surrounded by ledges. The evil flip side of the phase "Rockbound Maine Coast" becomes all too apparent. And believe me, sooner or later you will run aground. I even remember hitting bottom in a marina when assured by the "Dockmaster" (he was all of 16 years old) that was it was not possible to run aground where I was because I was in the alley way between the docks. And this despite the fact he was watching me ineffectually and ultimately disastrously gunning my engine back and forth and stirring up the mud. Low and behold while at full throttle I discovered how quickly my boat accelerates when it suddenly breaks free. Of course this discovery occurred in an area of restricted space surrounded by yachts of far more value than my own. To be honest virtually every year at the start of a new season I mentally hold my breath, because without fail something bad will occur before the boat is put up for the long winter.

Consider just a few of the phrases and words that are part of the lexicon of sailing:
1. Life preserver
2. Life sling
3. Broaching
3. Death roll
4. Rogue wave
5. White squall
6. Dismasting
7. Man overboard
8. Lifeline
9. Limit of positive stability
10. Lost at sea.


It truly is a strange passion. And yet every winter like thousands of other defectives I find myself daydreaming about the next boating season. And it is usually because I think about certain moments. Moments like rounding a crowded windward mark in a large fleet or getting the boat on a plane downwind in a blustery breeze. Or awakening at daybreak on a perfectly still ocean and watching the seabirds fish for breakfast with that first cup of coffee in my hand.

Like I said it is a disease and short of death there may be no cure. And to paraphrase/butcher Dickens: Sailing has given me some of the most thrilling moments in my life and some of the worst.

Have you considered taking up quilting?

Peter Hall

Tips on Buying A Boat - Part 2 - Some Great Practical Advice

This is part 2 of 3. Yesterday's can be found here.

Great response from Derek Brouwer on buying a boat. These are the questions you need to ask yourself. Thanks Derek!

There are a number of issues when buying a new boat or your first boat. I will assume that you have sailed before.

First question you need to answer for yourself is "What do I want to do with this boat"
1 Either Yacht racing or Cruising or a combination of both. Answering this question will put in the right direction if the type and design of boat you would like to buy.
2 Next identify 1-2 designs you like then try to sail on that design before buying this give you an idea of the boat appointments and capabilities.
3 make you final choice to the design then look for a suitable boat via boat yards and yachting mags.

Decide on a number of boat you might purchase then look them over personally

Ask the prospective seller the following question.
1. How often have you sailed this boat. If they sailed the boat once in 5 year whack 30% off the asking price, a boat that has not been sailed regularly will require more maintenance before you can go sailing

2 Ask to see the different appointments on the boat then ask to see them operating thus ensure that what ever you buy is in working order appointment that are not working whack off money as this is what you will have to pay to get them working.

Once you've found the prospective boat and the prospective seller that has shown and given the answers that satisfy you settle on a price now ask for all the paper work manuals service record of all the equipment on the boat. this save you a lot of heartache and pain when you have to work and service them.Buy the boat.

Once you've got the boat in you home port go through it once again from stem to stern mailing a list of things that need you attention

Stat with those that will get you boat sailing if you're lucky it will be ready to sail. Start fixing but most of all start sailing and enjoying your boat.

WE bought a VD Stadt 34 in 2006 and are sailing regularly and still working on our to-do list.

Please understand work and maintenance to keep your pride and joy sailing never stops!!!

Enjoy which ever boat you buy but most of all sail her regularly

Derek Brouwer

Tips on Buying A Boat - Part 1

First of all, I want to say a massive thank you to all those who responded to the request for horror stories and tips on buying a boat. Special thanks to the guys at Scuttlebutt for the plug. The response was so overwhelming that there will be a three part response.

One thing that didn't surprise me is me so how passionate sailors are about boats and how to buy them. On balance most people seem to have had good experiences but there was impassioned please to avoid buying a boat at all cost. More on that later.

Today I share some of the best tips. Again, thanks to everyone who contributed.

I've always had very modest boats and the trick there is to be patient. I knew I couldn't take on a project but could fix the cosmetics so I found boats that needed some "updating" but not full restoring.

Edward

I like to inspect a boat out of the water and then put it back in and take her through her paces with a couple of test sails.
If you get a larger boat you might want to hire a surveyor.
Here is a link to a survey check list that I have used in the past.

Joe Rouse

As a yacht broker, the best advice I can give to you is get a very good surveyor! Don't hire the cheapest one, get the one with good references and credentials. Be there at the survey and do not be afraid to ask questions. The surveyor works for you and you should take full advantage of this. This is also the best time to learn about the systems in your soon to be new boat before they break on you, and they will.

Chris Dowling

DO buy the boat you can afford now, and sail now.

But do not buy a boat if you won't be able to handle it (needing a little mentoring is okay) or if it's not the kind of boat you'll be ready to use any time soon.

Do beg your way onto lots of boats... OPB (other people's boats) is a fine, fine way to get experience. Play your cards right and some kindhearted, generous, caring boat owners might even let you help out with fiberglass repairs, diesel bleeding, marine head rebuilding, sail patching, circuit troubleshooting, blister removal, halyard retrieval/replacement, teak varnishing, and other secret delights of the boat owner's life.

Do ask lots of opinion, network, and pay attention to any feelings of unease ... or, with luck, feelings that "this one fits just right".

Don't believe everything you hear or read is true ... or at least, will be true for you and your needs and comfort level.

Pat

1.buying a boat will be one of the most enjoyable things to do - if and only if you use it
2.Buy a boat with the ability to be able to sell it in 5 years time - always look at the next owner
3.Make sure the lady/bride is onboard with your crazy adventure
4.then here is the risky (or less risky) approach.

Find someone in the sailing community with credibility/experience and good heart.

Enjoy the water and be kind to those closest to you.

Corinthian

My comment is to NOT buy a wood boat. Buy a boat that is in great condition so all you have to do is maintain it, which is enough work all by itself. Projects on a boat have a way of distracting one from actually sailing. Just say NO to a Project Boat.

Simple is easier to use. Complicated is usually a lot more money and time.

I suggest you purchase a 12 pack of cold beer and put your thumb out at the local Yacht Club on race night and hitch a ride on OPB for a year or so. You will learn more about making a boat go in one hour of racing than in a week of cruising on your own.

IF you are single and handy with your hands go to the Virgin Islands or other venue with lots of boats and put out your thumb as crew. Be sure to bail if it seems like a bad time and try again. It is about the people.

IF your wife has horses, just plan on sailing solo.

Count Enrico Ferrari

I say buy a dinghy that fits in your backyard.  One with roller furling jib, spinnaker, easy trailer or hoist launching.

The relatively unknown Buccaneer 18 (Buccaneer18.org) provides sailing experience with much of the same equipment you'll find on most any large boat….and then CHARTER the large boat when you need a "big water" fix.

Emory Heisler

... my comment to first time boat owners is to buy an older, well maintained Catalina 30. They are commodious down below--very nicely done indeed. They sail well, and they are very competitive if you are willing to buy some quality sails, keep the bottom clean and the other things one does. There are lot of used boats around that have been owned for years by original owners who maintain them very well. They are easy to sell with a large market so if you chose to bail after a year or two your loss will be minimal. There is no way to go wring if you buy a well maintained boat.

Doug Mills

Rent

rod

Buying a boat: Tell me you horror stories

In moment of madness, we are thinking about taking the plunge and buying a boat - Nothing too fancy. Something, small, old but seaworthy that we can take out when we want to but not feel guilty if she sits on the mooring for weeks on end.

I would love any tips you have. I have scoured the web for checklists and found some useful ones but I am looking for voices of experience. Your best tips and your horror stories? Actually the more horror stories the better. In fact screw the tips, what's the worst experience you have had buying a boat? What should I avoid at all costs?